Fundamentalists or Mentalists?
Some of you may be readers of The New Scientist. Some of you may like to put your feet up with Exodus or Revelation. Some of you may even do both!
http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=mg19025452.000
(I included this link if you care)
The new scientist reported on ""Clergy Letter Project, launched in 2004 by Michael Zimmerman of the University of Wisconsin in Oshkosh"(I am not even going to comment on the name Oshkosh). Basically this is a bunch of Christian Clergy (10,000+) who have said they believe in god and Evolution.
Now you, like me, may feel that this isn't necessarily a bad thing. These guys have their beliefs which may or may not sound like nonsense to you but they can also look at evidence from science and go "Hey, if you look at all the fossil evidence and the work done by Darwin then it's likely that evolution is real. Lets do us some praisin'".
I can respect this, I may not agree with their beliefs but if they can be open minded then I am on their side. Personally I don't like to take things on faith since a Junior school teacher destroyed my world by telling me Santa didn't exist. I had faith and even, I thought, proof. Every xmas eve I'd go to bed and when I woke up there would be presents under the tree. QED. My parents said Santa left them and who was I to argue with the dogma of authority? Where else would they have come from?
Of course there were heretics. There were the ones Santa didn't come to. They may have told me that Santa was just made up to give parents a way of ensuring acceptable behaviour all year but I kept the faith (you see he knew who was naughty or nice and those who were not nice would know what it was like to roast in the depths of the giant slaw I can tell you, or perhaps just didn't receive presents). I kept my faith until the proof was against me, until the teacher stated that there was no Santa. I asked my parents and they admitted the foul truth. They had been lying to me! Crushed and battered I yelled "Santa, why hast thou forsaken me!", but he didn't answer.......he just didn't answer.
Maybe this was the birthplace of my rage. That moment when I stopped believing things just because someone said it was fact. The moment I started questioning things that may have been written down. The moment I wanted proof in the form of physical evidence or logic. The moment my quest started, to use my rage against injustice and the hard of thinking everywhere (and mime artists, what the hell is that about? Bastards).
Anyway back to the god squad. These guys are responding to actual physical proof by saying evolution is probably true. Some fundamentalists or 'mentalists as I will refer to them (just to save me typing the long word, I know you wouldn't want me to get repetetive strain injury) have responded with well thought out cutting arguments to the contrary. The 'mentalists have responded by calling these enlightened people
"Christian whores, atheists and worse" (taken from the article)
Well, if they are going to use logic like that I guess that's the argument over. Kant at his finest couldn't have thrust his rapier wit at us with more accuracy. On the one hand we have the years of accumulated evidence. Fossils, carbon dating, Darwins work etc etc etc blah blah blah. On the other we have a book written by someone a couple of thousand years ago and revised by some other people at a later date.
I even saw a guy on TV (the Dawkins program The root of all evil) get angry because he said Dawkins had called his children monkeys. Can you say idiot? We said evolved from monkeys not are monkeys and if evolution is not true and people didn't evolve from monkeys explain George W Bush. Huh? huh? Go on. Explain that simian motherfucker.
Ok people may need their faith. I believe a person can be an athiest and still a moral person. In fact I believe you will never see a moral athiest commit atrocities like burning elderly woman at the stake or torturing people to make them admit they worship some horny red devil (Actually there was this girl at a club in Brighton dressed like satan in red leather who I would happily fall to my knees in front of, no need to get the whip out she had brought her own). Only Religion (or a strong belief system) can make otherwise good people perform acts of evil.
Ok , so far I have avoided excessively mentioning the rage. It's there though. I cannot describe the incandescent, lava like rage I got when I heard that people actually had to legally challenge a school to get them to stop teaching intelligent design (The argument from design is a crappy attempt to state that physically we are so complex there must be a designer ie god. This theory was taken on in philosophy years ago and debunked (again using evidence and also logical thought). If you must, read the blind watchmaker by Dawkins for an explanation as I cannot be arsed trotting out the arguments). I guess I should also mention the pride I felt when those guys and gals in Dover(USA) won! Yay Shermans!
Religion is a private matter. Believe what you like just don't try to thrust it down my throat (another statement made to me by a very polite lady). Further don't teach it in schools. Kids are gullible, they should have time to develop a personality before someone tries to brainwash them. The Jesuits used to say, ‘Give me a child for the first seven years, and you may do what you like with him afterwards'(Google it if you must). I find this disturbing on a whole bunch of levels given some of the court cases against catholic priests recently but I also feel it shows a get 'em young attitude that smacks of indoctrination.
It's not the fact that people believe in God that bothers me, it's that some of them seem to resent me for not believing. How does it hurt them? Do I turn up on their doorstep and ask if they have ever thought about looking at scientific proof? Do I chant outside their church? Do I sex up their little Christian Hotties? Ok that last ones a fair cop but she did shout out the word god at one point.
The other thing that gives me the rage is the complete refusal to even consider that they might be wrong.
Me - Just look at this fossil
'mentalist - No.
Me - Go on look at it
'mentalist - No, it's a lie. My book says so.
Me - You know Darwin...
'mentalist - La la la I am not listening. The book is true. I may not have any proof but it's true and you are going to hell. I shall be in heaven where I can watch all those sinners burn. I shall lean back against the cloud and watch the show as they all cook like sausages on a BBQ.
Me - Not a very Christian attitude. What about the Forgiveness bit?
'mentalist - Burn sinner. Die die die.
Me - Asshat
So to sum up, believe what you like. Let me believe what I like. Teach your own kids to be open minded. You can have faith and still keep touch with reality. Please don't discount science, it makes baby jesus cry!
http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=mg19025452.000
(I included this link if you care)
The new scientist reported on ""Clergy Letter Project, launched in 2004 by Michael Zimmerman of the University of Wisconsin in Oshkosh"(I am not even going to comment on the name Oshkosh). Basically this is a bunch of Christian Clergy (10,000+) who have said they believe in god and Evolution.
Now you, like me, may feel that this isn't necessarily a bad thing. These guys have their beliefs which may or may not sound like nonsense to you but they can also look at evidence from science and go "Hey, if you look at all the fossil evidence and the work done by Darwin then it's likely that evolution is real. Lets do us some praisin'".
I can respect this, I may not agree with their beliefs but if they can be open minded then I am on their side. Personally I don't like to take things on faith since a Junior school teacher destroyed my world by telling me Santa didn't exist. I had faith and even, I thought, proof. Every xmas eve I'd go to bed and when I woke up there would be presents under the tree. QED. My parents said Santa left them and who was I to argue with the dogma of authority? Where else would they have come from?
Of course there were heretics. There were the ones Santa didn't come to. They may have told me that Santa was just made up to give parents a way of ensuring acceptable behaviour all year but I kept the faith (you see he knew who was naughty or nice and those who were not nice would know what it was like to roast in the depths of the giant slaw I can tell you, or perhaps just didn't receive presents). I kept my faith until the proof was against me, until the teacher stated that there was no Santa. I asked my parents and they admitted the foul truth. They had been lying to me! Crushed and battered I yelled "Santa, why hast thou forsaken me!", but he didn't answer.......he just didn't answer.
Maybe this was the birthplace of my rage. That moment when I stopped believing things just because someone said it was fact. The moment I started questioning things that may have been written down. The moment I wanted proof in the form of physical evidence or logic. The moment my quest started, to use my rage against injustice and the hard of thinking everywhere (and mime artists, what the hell is that about? Bastards).
Anyway back to the god squad. These guys are responding to actual physical proof by saying evolution is probably true. Some fundamentalists or 'mentalists as I will refer to them (just to save me typing the long word, I know you wouldn't want me to get repetetive strain injury) have responded with well thought out cutting arguments to the contrary. The 'mentalists have responded by calling these enlightened people
"Christian whores, atheists and worse" (taken from the article)
Well, if they are going to use logic like that I guess that's the argument over. Kant at his finest couldn't have thrust his rapier wit at us with more accuracy. On the one hand we have the years of accumulated evidence. Fossils, carbon dating, Darwins work etc etc etc blah blah blah. On the other we have a book written by someone a couple of thousand years ago and revised by some other people at a later date.
I even saw a guy on TV (the Dawkins program The root of all evil) get angry because he said Dawkins had called his children monkeys. Can you say idiot? We said evolved from monkeys not are monkeys and if evolution is not true and people didn't evolve from monkeys explain George W Bush. Huh? huh? Go on. Explain that simian motherfucker.
Ok people may need their faith. I believe a person can be an athiest and still a moral person. In fact I believe you will never see a moral athiest commit atrocities like burning elderly woman at the stake or torturing people to make them admit they worship some horny red devil (Actually there was this girl at a club in Brighton dressed like satan in red leather who I would happily fall to my knees in front of, no need to get the whip out she had brought her own). Only Religion (or a strong belief system) can make otherwise good people perform acts of evil.
Ok , so far I have avoided excessively mentioning the rage. It's there though. I cannot describe the incandescent, lava like rage I got when I heard that people actually had to legally challenge a school to get them to stop teaching intelligent design (The argument from design is a crappy attempt to state that physically we are so complex there must be a designer ie god. This theory was taken on in philosophy years ago and debunked (again using evidence and also logical thought). If you must, read the blind watchmaker by Dawkins for an explanation as I cannot be arsed trotting out the arguments). I guess I should also mention the pride I felt when those guys and gals in Dover(USA) won! Yay Shermans!
Religion is a private matter. Believe what you like just don't try to thrust it down my throat (another statement made to me by a very polite lady). Further don't teach it in schools. Kids are gullible, they should have time to develop a personality before someone tries to brainwash them. The Jesuits used to say, ‘Give me a child for the first seven years, and you may do what you like with him afterwards'(Google it if you must). I find this disturbing on a whole bunch of levels given some of the court cases against catholic priests recently but I also feel it shows a get 'em young attitude that smacks of indoctrination.
It's not the fact that people believe in God that bothers me, it's that some of them seem to resent me for not believing. How does it hurt them? Do I turn up on their doorstep and ask if they have ever thought about looking at scientific proof? Do I chant outside their church? Do I sex up their little Christian Hotties? Ok that last ones a fair cop but she did shout out the word god at one point.
The other thing that gives me the rage is the complete refusal to even consider that they might be wrong.
Me - Just look at this fossil
'mentalist - No.
Me - Go on look at it
'mentalist - No, it's a lie. My book says so.
Me - You know Darwin...
'mentalist - La la la I am not listening. The book is true. I may not have any proof but it's true and you are going to hell. I shall be in heaven where I can watch all those sinners burn. I shall lean back against the cloud and watch the show as they all cook like sausages on a BBQ.
Me - Not a very Christian attitude. What about the Forgiveness bit?
'mentalist - Burn sinner. Die die die.
Me - Asshat
So to sum up, believe what you like. Let me believe what I like. Teach your own kids to be open minded. You can have faith and still keep touch with reality. Please don't discount science, it makes baby jesus cry!
posted by Student at 10:02 am
2 Comments:
Oh, wow. I was going to debate some points here, but, on typing a few of these here words I have thought better of that course. So, uh, good luck.
Nothing wrong with debate. I will happily discuss anything with anyone as long as they stick with sensible arguments and not something like "because it is that's why!". Thanks for the wish of luck, I may need it.
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